Back to LanguageTool Homepage - Privacy - Imprint

[br_FR] (breton) some rules to add & change


(Novram) #1

Hello everyone,
I've found a mistake in the correction of Lt for Breton;
So, of course, I've tried to write down a grammar rule, but I'm not really strong at it, not at all in fact... So could anyone help me, please?

It's just an exception about the use of the articles with the word “SMS”.

The rule say that in front of a word which is not beginning with the
consonants “n, t, d, h” or a vowel we use the article definite “ar” and
indefinite “ur”, and not the article definite “an” and indefinite “un”.

But here, we use “an” and “un” in front of the word SMS.
The reason is that we are saying in Breton the “s” in the word
SMS like that /ɛs/, so there is a kind of “ghostly” vowel there,
that's why we use “an” and “un” here.

thanks a lot


(Dominique PELLÉ) #2

Hi. I maintain the Breton version of LT.
Glad to hear from users!
LT in Breton has not seen many updates lately.

Reading your bug description, you're saying that it's correct
to say "An SMS." Right?

But LT does not complain about that. I just typed "An SMS."
in https://languagetool.org/br/ (no error found).

The rule id="AR" has in fact example of such correct sentences
which are similar to "An SMS.":

    <example>Gant an FSE</example>
    <example>An SNJ-CGT</example>
    <example>Un S.O.S.</example>

It admittedly complains when written in lower case as in "An sms"
but since SMS is an abbreviation, so it think it's wrong to write "An sms"
anyway.

Did I misunderstand anything? Which version of LT are you using?
Can you check with the online version of LT?

It's best by the way to give one or a few examples of sentences when
reporting an issue (sentences with false error, or sentences with errors
which are not found).


(Novram) #3

Hi Dominique,
Thanks for your answer :wink:
I'm using the last version of Lt on openoffice and the Lt's website.
They are saying the same thing:

Its the same when I'm writing "An sm-mañ a gasas un sms din", and a lot of words with a "gostly" vowel like it.
Others exemples:
An FNSEA
An FDSEA
An FN
...
So and so :slight_smile:
I'll send you some words I think in a few days
Chañs vat :wink:


(Novram) #4

Hello Dominik,
How are you?
I've started to work on a list of word that need the articles "an" and "un".
I'll send it to you.
Of course it has to be expended.
But it's a kind of basis, if you want, just the beginning :slight_smile:
Kenavo


(Novram) #5

Hello folks,
How do you do.
Will it be possible to add a rule for correcting the use of a francization in Breton.
“Save the verb may/power in Breton instead of an awful francization”: Y. Gerven
It is about the use of the form:

“Tu zo da*...” *din, dit, dezhañ, dezhi, deomp, deoc'h, dezho.
This form is to say “May I” ; but it is not understandable into “traditional” Breton and even native speaker.
It has a correct form which is using the verb “Gallout” (may):

Incorrect form : Tu zo din mont d'ar privezioù?
Correct form: Gallout a ran mont d'ar privezioù?
Exception:
N’eus tu ebet da zibrennañ an nor.
There is no way to unlock the door.
Mamm-me he doa an tu d’ober krampouezh moan.
My mummy knows how to do crepes thin.
Un tu zo da c’hwezhañ an tan er forn-se, a ranker deskiñ.
There is a way to blow onto the fire into that oven, you should learn.

http://www.reseau-canope.fr/tes/yanngerven/index.php?pennad=A017
http://www.reseau-canope.fr/tes/yanngerven/index.php?pennad=A018
Incorrect forms:
a. Tu zo deoc’h tostaat un tammig ?
Can you approach a few?
b. Tu zo dezhañ sammañ ouzhpenn daou-c’hant livr war e gein
He can load two hundred pounds on his back.
c. Tu zo deoc’h da chom didrouz ?
can you stay silent?
d. Ne vefe ket tu dezhañ da zeskiñ un tamm brezhoneg ?
~Would there be no way he could learn Breton?

Correct forms:
a.1. E c’hellit tostaat un tammig ?
a.2. Gellout a rit tostaat un tammig?
b.1. Gallout a ra sammañ daou-c’hant livr war e gein.
b.2. Eñ a c’hell sammañ daou-c’hant livr war e gein.
c.1. E c’hellit ober peoc’h ?
c.2. Gellout a rit ober peoc'h?
c.3. E c'hallit chom peoc'h?
c.4. Gellout a rit chom peoc'h?
c.5. E c'hallit chom didrouz?
c.6. Gellout a rit chom didrouz?
d.1. n’ellfe ket deskiñ un tamm brezhoneg ?
d.2. N'hallfe ket deskiñ un tamm brezhoneg?
But we will say also:
Kaout, klask, kavout, gouzout an tu --> le truc, l’astuce, le bon procédé, l’art et la manière.


(Novram) #6

Another rule that is really important to add is:

Incorrect form: Gellout a ran mont er privezioù?
It means: May I go in the toilets ; and really in it :scream: :sweat_smile: :confounded:

Correct form: Gellout a ran mont d'ar privezioù.
It means: May I go to the toilets.


(Novram) #7

Here some sounds thats into breton language:
The sound of the rooster is "kikeriki", "kokokog" "kotogog, kog-kogog" and not "cocorico".
We will not say "patatra" but "Balaoñ" or "Badadaoñ" "Baladaoñ" "Boudoudoum".
It will be not "toc, toc toc" when we knock to the door but "dao, dao, dao".
The french sound "vlan" will became "vlaou" or "draou".
The french sound "plouf" will became "plaouf".
The breton sound for "beurk"/ "jerk" is "erc'h".
The breton sound for "prout" is "broup" or "frep".
The pig is saying "oc'h oc'h".

The french sound "ploc" is "flank" in breton.
"Paf" is the same or "pok", "pof".
"Vroum" is the same or "broum".
Bing is the same and krabardaf.
To be completed


(Novram) #8

"Words order in sentence:" Y. Gerven
Errors to correct:
Incorrect forms:
1. Oc'h ober emaout petra?
2. Emaout petra oc’h ober ?
3. Petra oc’h ober emaout ?
4. O lenn emaon ul levr.
5. Emaon ul levr o lenn.
6. Ul levr o lenn emaon.
7. O labourat emaon start.
8. Emaon start o labourat.
9. Start o labourat emaon.

Correct forms:
1. Oc'h ober petra emaout?
2. Emaout oc'h ober petra?
3. Petra emaout oc'h ober?
4. O lenn ul levr emaon.
5. Emaon o lenn ul levr.
6. Ul levr emaon o lenn.
7. O labourat start emaon.
8. Emaon o labourat start.
9. Start emaon o labourat.

But exception:
O labourat emaon da vat.
O labourat da vat emaon.
Emaon o labourat da vat.
Emaon da vat o labourat.
Da vad emaon o labourat.
Da vat o labourat emaon.
http://www.reseau-canope.fr/tes/yanngerven/index.php?pennad=B022


(Novram) #9

"Singular in french, singular in breton? Aoutch!" Y. Gerven
Incorrect forms:
1.Gant ar reolennoù nevez e vefe gwerzhet pesk marc’hadmad gant ar Saozon.
2.Pesketaet e vez an harink.
3.Diskarget e vez levneg.
4.Tapet e vez draeneg.
5.Kour al leue.
6.Debret em eus leue.
7.Debret em eus pemoc'h.
8. Debret em eus yer.
9. Debret em eus morzhed oc'h.
10. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h marc'h.
11. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h buoc'h.
12. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h dañved.
13. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h kazh.
14. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h logodenn.
15. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h razhed.
16. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h yar.
17. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h logodenn-dall.
But!
Kaoc'h chas.

Correct forms:
1.Gant ar reolennoù nevez e vefe gwerzhet pesked marc’hadmad gant ar Saozon.
2.Pesketaet e vez an harinked.
3.Diskarget e vez levneged.
4.Tapet e vez draeneged.
5.kour al leueioù.
6.Debret em eus kig leue.
7.Debret em eus kig pemoc'h.
8. Debret em eus kig yer.
9. Debret em eus kig morzhed oc'h.
10. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h kezeg.
11. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h saout.
12. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h deñved.
13. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h kizhier.
14. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h logod.
15. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h razhed.
16. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h yer.
17. Kerzhet em eus e-barzh kaoc'h logod-dall
But!
Koac'h ki.

http://www.reseau-canope.fr/tes/yanngerven/index.php?pennad=B021


(Novram) #10

Use some numbers in breton:
incorrect sentence:
1. Div wech brasoc'h evidon.
2. Div wech bihanoc'h evidon.
3. Kant a zo div wech muioc'h evit hanter-kant.

correct sentence:
1. Un hanter vrasoc'h evidon.
2. Un hanter vihanoc'h evidon.
3. Kant a zo hanter muioc'h evit hanter-kant.

http://www.reseau-canope.fr/tes/yanngerven/index.php?pennad=A086


(Novram) #11

The translations of "vous" (you in french) into breton:
Incorrect form:
1. Prest omp d’ho reiñ titouroù war ar stignad-mañ.
We are ready to give you informations on this serie.
2. Ho reiñ a ran an ugent real-mañ.
3. Ho skrivañ a ran.
I'm writing you.

Correct form:
1.a. Prest omp da reiñ deoc'h titouroù war ar stignad-mañ.
1.b. Prest omp da reiñ titouroù war ar stignad-mañ deoc'h.
1.c. Prest omp da reiñ titouroù deoc'h war ar stignad-mañ.
2. Reiñ a ran deoc’h an ugent real-mañ.
3. Skrivañ a ran deoc'h.
I'm writing to you.

But:
Ho klevet a ran mat, prest omp d’ho selaou, m’ho suppli, tud yaouank.

http://www.reseau-canope.fr/tes/yanngerven/index.php?pennad=A065


(Novram) #12

"To learn = deskiñ ? Caution!" Y. Gerven:
Incorrect forms:
1. Desket ’m eus war ar journal e oa marv X...
I have learned in the newspaper/newcast that X was dead.
2. Hag e teskis e laboure e Skol-veur Roazhon.
3. En ur gomz gantañ e teskomp eo genidik eus Loudia.
4. Desket ’m eus e vefe ur vodadeg dilun...

Correct form:
1.a. Lennet ’m eus war ar journal e oa marv X.
1.b. Klevet ’m eus war ar journal e oa marv X.
1.c. Gwelet 'm eus er jt e oa marv X.
2. Hag e klevis e laboure e Skol-veur Roazhon.
3. En ur gomz gantañ e klevomp eo genidik eus Lodoeg.
4.a. Klevet ’m eus e vefe ur vodadeg.
4.b. Lennet ’m eus e vefe ur vodadeg.

In breton we are learning "deskiñ" when it's a lesson, a song, or even another ability (bike, a work/job). Whereas the French is using only the verb to learn "apprendre".
Some others exemples:
Deskiñ ober un dra bennak da unan bennak.
~To teach something to someone.
Deskiñ unan bennak da ober un dra bennak.
~To teach someone to do something.
Desket e oan bet da wriat traoù.
I learned to sew a few things.
Desket e oa bet din gwriat traoù.
~I was taught how to sew some things.
An dra-se ’zesko dit ; Mad zo graet dit !
That'll teach you ; serves to you right!
http://www.reseau-canope.fr/tes/yanngerven/index.php?pennad=A012


(Novram) #13

Hello,

I’ve been working on a few list of words that might help you for the breton.


Some are not ready for the moment but in a very short time it will be good, well, I hope.


(Novram) #14

Hello folks,
@Dominique_PELLE
Some users have told me, when the explanation token of a grammar rule is quite long, it is cut off and some of is missing.
I’ve tried to see if it was true, and sadly it is.
I don’t know if it is the case for other languages but for breton it is the case.
How could you fix that in your opinion?
You will find a photo attached


A galon ganeoc’h!
Kalon vat deoc’h!


(Dominique PELLÉ) #15

Thanks for the feedback. I can improve that. The part which says “Ha fellout a rae deoc’h skrivañ …” (= Did you mean to write …) should not be necessary. We could just use the <suggestion> feature instead. I’ll work on this very soon. It’s easy but it touches plenty of messages. I’ll do it little by little. The same could be improved for some other languages. I did not notice it myself, because I don’t use LT in libreoffice much. I mostly use the command line interface.


(Daniel Naber) #16

There’s also <short>, which is used in LibreOffice, IIRC.


(Novram) #17

Hello,
Instead of writing “Ha fellout a rae deoc’h skrivañ…?” it could be written “C’hoant ho poa skrivañ… ?” (did you want to write…?) or maybe “Skrivit kentoc’h …” (Write instead…). But the problem could be the same, if the first part is very long, unfortunately.
Regards


(Novram) #18

Re,
@Dominique_PELLE
Do you think that it might be possible to develop rules or tokens about the Breton prefix and suffix?
For example the prefix “ad-” (re-, i.e. reorder) is not changing the word gender but it will mutate by softening (dre vlotaat/par adoucissement) some letters. According to F. Kervella §874-875 p.458, the mutated letters are G, Gw, B, M after the prefix “ad-”.


(Novram) #19

Hi back,
A new version of Hunspell [br-Fr] is available at: https://github.com/Drouizig/hunspell-br


(Novram) #20

Hi back,
Will it be possible to add a grammar rule about the expression “bep a” (=each, distinct, respective) that introduce a softening mutation?
When, I enter some sentences with this expression for example:
Bep a zamm bara*.
Bep a tamm bara*.
~Each piece of bread.
LT isn’t able to correct it in:
Bep a damm bara.
If you you want some examples, let me know ^^
Tx :slight_smile:
All the best :sunny: